Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

I'm genuinely curious about people saying that they never run out of energy. How do you do it? This is my build in PvE:
[build prof=Me/E Fast=12+1 Illusion=12+1+3][Ineptitude][arcane echo][epidemic][wandering eye][clumsiness][signet of clumsiness][glyph of lesser energy][sunspear rebirth signet][/build]
For any other profession, getting two spells for 5 energy would be a steal, but I find that I am still running out of energy about halfway through battle. Early on I can render attackers almost completely useless, but after about 30 seconds, I am out of energy and kind of useless myself. If the enemies are dead, I'm fine, but otherwise I'm wanding. All that in spite of running all radiant insignias and a +20 staff. What is your secret?

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

If your party has not a single primary necro, you're either running something gimmicky or should be running one.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

You're still doing 60 a hit, which allows the bulk of the damage to go through anyway.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

Because you could just have something do damage to kill stuff faster.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

A lot of people. Vanquishing and even normal PvE taking 1.5 times as long (considering running time between groups stays the same) means you aren't running something effective.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

"imbagon"

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

Because you could just have something do damage to kill stuff faster.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

It doesn't require an elite, frees up a skill slot and is still 3/4 as effective. It's superior.

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

EDIT:

That doesn't make sense. If Power Drain and Drain Enchantment are only meant to interrupt or strip enchantments, respectively, then why do you have so many points invested in inspiration rather than in making the rest of your skills more effective?

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

So you take an interrupt/enchant removal that has 20 recharge without the intent of gaining energy from them? Since they just "happen" to do that.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

As a side note, I'm not a "ROAR, DAMAGE" player in general, it's just the best thing to run in pve. In my opinion, anyway.

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Just cause your team does not have a necro does not mean its a gimmick.

Originally Posted by JDRyder

maybe less not every NPC has 600 HP id guess, and if you were doing 70 or 80 does not matter as much but you do 120, thats half of your damage. PS was just 1 spell that may hurt casters, there are many more ways to do so, like spell breaker and the only way your going to stop that is a interrupt, or maybe a few derv skills but i looked and they all are spells and even tho they are AoE or req you to do something like hit them when they have less HP, im not sure if they will remove it.

Originally Posted by JDRyder

but you said your going to have a necro any way? why not take it? 1 skill is not going to mean s*** and it can be more useful to the team.

Originally Posted by JDRyder

yep and if your team dies 1 time than it adds up to be less effective.

Originally Posted by JDRyder

that help my point tbh

Originally Posted by JDRyder

if its the only anti melee skill you take that is. Also cant do mass dazed, you dont even have to have a blinding skills on your bar, if some1 else was going to use a blinding skill any way, you can just use it on their target.

Originally Posted by JDRyder

its just a added + to the skills even if its not needed, no i dont need that much energy management but just cause the give me energy does not mean im using it for energy management, If MS gave you 5 energy for each target you hit, does this mean its a energy management skill or a damage skill? it makes it both and if you want to use it as a damage spell you get a + you may not need as well. For power drain and drain enchant they give you energy as well and can be used as energy management but was not the point to add them in this build. If you wanted you can use web of disruption or even spec in dom and use some of the skills from there instead.

Originally Posted by JDRyder

the best way to do things will always depend on your play style and what your team is good at. A team of uber mesmers will able to clear DoA or fow just as fast as if not faster as a average team of eles. Most players are average, id think its something like 70% "people like you or me" with 20% of guild less than average "people that think, thinking is bad...", 9% higher than average "like people from CC or err7" and 1% or less uber players "people like dark ally or sup ". This game has a very big skill curve unlike a lot of other online games, and true uber plays will be able to run any thing and make it work "like some 1 from dR ran mending in a gvg x.X "

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

Necromancers are one of the best pve classes and offer some of the best (ss, rh,...) hexes and aoe weakness.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

Have fun doing 120 in HM on a regular basis. Also, drain enchantment wouldn't do jack against spell breaker either.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

Indeed, and it'd even be on a character dishing out good damage, reducing damage and having energy management just by speccing an attribute.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

Suck less, also note the next point, regarding the imbagon.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

No it doesn't. Just rape shit, just maintain ps on the imbagon and ignore most defense.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

No, it's superior regardless, due to lower requirements (as I noted before, no elite req. etc). And in this case, if you really want blind (wouldn't see why you would though), take blind was mingson, it's aoe by default.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

Then why are you speccing in inspiration? Your point is moot.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

3/4 players don't understand basic game mechanics.

Originally Posted by JDRyder

still does not mean they are a gimmick if you run w/o them, If you run 1 or 2 ES hammer warriors theres little point to having them cause every thing is going to be KDed and than SS cant do every much.

Originally Posted by JDRyder

I said that was just 1 way. I also said drain would not take PS off, i said you'd need a interrupt or maybe a derv to so do "still have not tested the derv enchants removal on SB so it may not work"

Originally Posted by JDRyder

yep but having a mesmer means better energy management for you monks, why not have both?

Originally Posted by JDRyder

always, I say this to people a lot, but if you sucked less you'd be able to run any thing just as good as what your running now

Originally Posted by JDRyder

yes it does, you said "dont take a Enchant removal, and take more attack skills" basically, so saying bring SY helps my point in saying theres nothing wrong with defense and cause you say you always have a necro, this means you always have at least 2 defense chars. Only thing is a interrupt means target foe does 0 damage, with SY they will still be doing some. This does not mean dont take Imbagon, matter of fact if you take both and only take 1 monk you will be doing more damage. In heavy melee areas tho Imbagon is better, but you still can use a FD mesmer and a necro and take their DPS down by more than you can with SY.

Originally Posted by JDRyder

you going to have to have a elite any way, why not take something you will be using a lot and can be used in more ways?

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Cause Blind was mingson has a 20sec recharge for about 8 secs of blind, your better off with [signet of midnight]+[Epidemic] or [Ineptitude]+[Arcane Echo]+[Epidemic]

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

Then don't take ES warriors. SS+non-kding frontline is superior. (take GDW or BHA if you have a problem with shutdown - note: using GDW when needed only)

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

I just counted, there's a grand total of 3 enemies that use prot spirit in normal mode and 4 in hard mode (aside from bosses, again, take GDW or BHA if you can't manage to kill them).

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

Wait, wut? imbagon = monk shouldn't run out of energy

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

Wrong. There are clearly superior and inferior builds.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

imbagon+monk can keep a party up, even if you ignore all other defense. I like EB as an added bonus though.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

By taking an elite that actually does something useful. Blind is mediocre in pve.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

Learn to only use it when stuff runs for your backline. I wouldn't use it, but it gives even the shittiest monk time to prot whatever they're going for.

Originally Posted by around

This is dumb. Sure, I guess Fenix could run a warrior bar with nothing on it but frenzy and rush and win PvE, but that doesn't mean that it's more efficient than running a full 8 skills.



I hear killing stuff is a 100% reduction in damage.

Originally Posted by JDRyder

I run with just 25 energy most the time, unless im on my 40/40

you build looks sweet but its something like trying to running this on a ele.
[blinding surge][lightning hammer][kinetic armor][stoning][ward against melee][ward against foes][air attunement][rez sig] "bad imo so theres no mix ups"

what id do take [drain enchant] or [power drain] in place of clumsiness depending on where i am, maybe spirit of failure every thing is going to miss any way or energy tap see how that works,

If i reworked your build it'd look like this

[build=OQBDAYwjS6AOBIgrA5ZCAAAAAA] if you really want to keep every thing blind w/o FD this is how id do it imo. if you want more dps and blind just play ele :P

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

I think I understand what you're saying about using skills that are less energy intensive, but I don't think that running into the front lines to blind a foe with Signet of Midnight is a viable solution; I'd get decimated by their back and mid line due to my relatively low armor and health.

Furthermore, to use either Drain Enchantment or Power Drain I would need to take points out of FC (so as not to affect DPS), in which case, as you point out, I might as well play an Ele.

The point of my build was to take advantage of my Mesmer primary (Attributes > 12, Fast Casting) and yet stay competitive DPS-wise thanks to armor-ignoring damage. However, you seem to be saying that this is impossible as I need less damage and more energy management.

Originally Posted by JDRyder

ES owns with every thing KDed its better than BHA imo. Ive said this before, having good synergy is needed for a good team build, If you want to run a ES war(s) run it, If you team has good synergy you still going to finish just as fast.

Originally Posted by JDRyder

ummm ifs theres only 3 or 4 enemies just run warmos, the battle will be even faster and less a reason to take more damage cause the time difference will be even less, may as well just CoF them a few times

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Spell gets interrupted, spell does 0 damage, monk uses 0 energy. Spell does not get interrupted, Player takes damage, cost monk 5-20+ energy.

Originally Posted by JDRyder

nope If a player is truly uber at the game, does not matter what they have they will know how to work with it and make it work, cause they understand how the game works and will be able to use his/her skills to the fullest.

Originally Posted by JDRyder

like when i added power drian on that mesmer bar? As you have said before "just take more damage" cause that will having all that damage will save your team so much time right?

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Oh 90% damage reduction on melee is bad? Blind is better than weakness cause it will also take more pressure off, and other than just using it cause its easier to do in mass, why not try to be creative and find new ways?

or i can just keep a big group of them blind all the time and save the "bad" monk the energy

Originally Posted by JDRyder

well they are all going to be blind in a few secs so what does it matter? You should be fine.

Dont need any more than 8 or 9 in FC imo, you will have cut you cast time in about half at that point.

Your trying to force the damage imo "if that makes any sense" its as if you added just attacks on a wars bar w/ no IAS etc, your DPS will go down by not having a IAS, even though you have 8 attacks. Same thing for a mesmer only interrupts and things like that are your IAS in a way, and by having 1 thats a spell you will not have to spam.

Also if you add a bunch of 10+ energy spells on a mesmers bar that you plan to spam on recharge, you going to run out at some point and any class will have this problem if they did the same, bad synergy imo. If you dont want to take out 1 of the 10 energy skills try taking out echo imo.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

Unless going for an entirely KD-based team (GDW barrage or the likes), damage is superior to shutdown.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

That didn't even make sense.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

They're taking less than 1/5 damage from non-clean damage, tell your monk to stop sucking.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

Gasp, a new player running the shockaxe is worse than an experienced player running hamstorm, you just blew my mind. Stop spouting random crap, a player can run a non-retarded bar more efficient than a crappy one. Even the best guild wars players do better with a good bar than with a bad bar, gasp.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

Hey, like I said, personal preference. Takes a single skill slot, hardly any spec and makes half of every group do 1/3 damage. As opposed to fevered dreams, a crappy elite.
edit: As a note, it probably is better to run without it.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

Yeah, and you're still spending a crappy elite, 2 skill slots, 2 fixed classes and 15e every, what, 8 seconds?

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

The threat I was alluding to was not from the warriors, assassins, and dervishes, but rather from the paragons, rangers, elementalists, and ritualists who would not be blinded or not affected by blind.

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

I'm curious as to how interrupts are Mesmer IAS. Could you please elaborate on this point.

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

The thing is, another profession probably could spam 10e spells. A necromancer, for example, could Arcane Echo -> Spiteful Spirit ->Spiteful Spirit -> Reckless Haste and momentarily get back up to 3/4 energy thanks to enemies dying. Similarly, an elementalist could spam spells long enough to wipe out the enemy before running out of energy. Of course, these professions would be better off using spells from their own attributes to deal damage, rather than mesmer spells.

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

If I understand you correctly, the way to go for a Mesmer is to invest pretty heavily into Inspiration Magic (8, 10, 11 are the cutoffs for Drain Enchantment) and equip a few skills to help keep my energy up:
[build prof=Me/E Illusion=12+1+3 Inspi=10+1 Fast=8+1][Arcane Echo][Ineptitude][Epidemic][Wandering Eye][Glyph of lesser][Drain Enchantment][Power Drain][Sunspear Rebirth][/build]
Thus, three out of my eight skills have to be devoted to energy management rather than offensive utility and the only reason I need to invest in Fast Casting is that some Mesmer spells take too long to cast for their effect, but I suppose that this is just the way mesmers are.

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

If only Mesmers had some inherent form of energy management, LIKE EVERY OTHER PROFESSION, rather than having to devote 3/8 of their skills to it.

Originally Posted by JDRyder

thats the point, just use good synergy in your teams build. Some NPCs can right up out DPS even the best teams, and if you dont stop it or slow it down some how your just going to wipe. Saying theres only 1 way to do things is wrong, there are many many builds, that work just as well as the meta, the best builds are the builds your guild makes themselves as a guild. Do you think the PvX team build your guild is using atm was made in 5mins? no just stick with w/ it and never stop modding it, and if your already doing that good, keep doing it.

Originally Posted by JDRyder

point was in the few areas where theres only 3 enemies its basically impossible to lose when you have 8 people in your team and you may as well be doing it in easy mode with pugs.

Originally Posted by JDRyder

or you can stop sucking and kill them faster right?

Originally Posted by JDRyder

that was the point, stop sucking i guess right?

Originally Posted by JDRyder

depends on where you are, same for every build, your not going to run a MM in a place with no body's are you?

Originally Posted by JDRyder

no i was showing how they can be used, and that narrow minded is saying some skills are 100% useless is 100% wrong. Every skill is more useful than others in same places just depends on where you are at the time and what your trying to do. If you want a build thats good for every thing go GvG where you dont know what your going to face, in pve you always know, so make use of the knowledge you have about the area.

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

Thus, three out of my eight skills have to be devoted to energy management rather than offensive utility and the only reason I need to invest in Fast Casting is that some Mesmer spells take too long to cast for their effect, but I suppose that this is just the way mesmers are.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

NPC can't outDPS players, as players have "SY!". Your point is moot.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

When I said 4 enemies, I mean 4 enemies types in TOTAL in all of guild wars. As in, there's 4 types of monsters in the entire game (not counting bosses) that use protective spirit.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

Exactly, don't bother interrupting it, rape them, let SY catch the bulk of the damage and let your monk mop up the bit of damage that goes through.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

No, you were saying the opposite. You claimed a good bar was obsolete if you had enough skill. Efficiency is a factor which you ignored completely.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

There's hardly any areas without fleshies in the game. In that case, just grab IV or whatever and spam away.

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

No. Fevered dreams sucks. It's like saying "amity can be used under the right settings", it can, anything can, but it'll be an inferior choice.

Originally Posted by upier

That isn't entirely correct.
If you look at the skills - you should notice that only GoLE is e-management - while the other two are exactly what you are looking for - offensive utility.
Removal of enchantments and interruption.
With the added bonus of energy gain.

Originally Posted by draxynnic

You know...

I think I like the idea of making Fast Casting reduce the recharge of spells and signets. Helps with... pretty much everything a Mesmer may be wanting to do, really.

It'd have to be a fairly subtle effect - say, 1% per rank - but it would provide a clearer benefit for PvE than faster cast times do now.

Originally Posted by draxynnic

You know...

I think I like the idea of making Fast Casting reduce the recharge of spells and signets. Helps with... pretty much everything a Mesmer may be wanting to do, really.

It'd have to be a fairly subtle effect - say, 1% per rank - but it would provide a clearer benefit for PvE than faster cast times do now.

Originally Posted by draxynnic

You know...

I think I like the idea of making Fast Casting reduce the recharge of spells and signets. Helps with... pretty much everything a Mesmer may be wanting to do, really.

It'd have to be a fairly subtle effect - say, 1% per rank - but it would provide a clearer benefit for PvE than faster cast times do now.